Model 19 building plans

[gamalot]

Live and learn I suppose! I always thought A7s were lighter but larger then 19s because of the material and construction.

I do agree with Paul that good Plywood will be the more durable choice and this is a good part of my reason for going to the A7.

If you are building the 19 boxes and do use the plywood I will be very interested in hearing the results.

I am also a bit of a preservationist when it comes to Vintage 19s and would dissuade anyone from beating up the real 19s in road use. The grills and bases would be broken in no time at all and I question the connection between the top and bottom boxes being strong enough to be yanked around a great deal.

Gary

[bigjunglejim]

Hi all
I've taken apart a pair of 19's to re finish the wood. They are held together with wood screws. When I build 19's for the road they will be made of plywood and put together so they will not come apart unless I take them apert. They will have protection for the transducers, rounded corners, covered with truck bed liner paint and sitting on rubber feet, locking casters or rubber strips. The jury's still out on adding sub woofers and making them three way. I could build the subs attached (or not) to the bottom of the 19's or include a sub woofer into the NEW design and have a Jammin Jungle Jim's Model 19+. LOL Happy new year.

By the way, for many years the referance standard for the movie industry was the Altec A7 loaded with a 416B, 802 and either a 511 or 811 horn (I don't remember which) They had a 1200Hz X over. The Model 19's are not tamed versions of the A7, Not when the same components are used. Also, FYI Altec had three versions. 1. Walnut 2. Oak 3. utility (painted). They were advertised for home and STUDIO use. Studio use can be harder on speakers than theater. Few audiances would put up with the high volumes often found in recording studios for longer than a moment or two.

Interesting observation by my brother while doing sound in a clasic rock night club. In the mixing area which was about 50ft (or more) from the stage, when the sound pressures started going above 91dB, we started loosing customers. They'd leave. The general public don't want the high SPS we think they do. At least not in that night club.

I think 19's will do the trick for the mobile DJ work I'll be doing. If I need more beef, I have bigger equipment in my inventory.

[bigjunglejim]

Hi Gary.
Even the rockers get tired of their ears hurting. There is a phenomenon that takes place with higher volumes. Certain notes (frequencies) when combined sound bad, until you crank up the volume. Then those same two frequencies sound good together (I learned this in a music appreciation class). The old sayings are true (to a point) if you su_k, turn it up. And, if you can't you can't play it good, play it loud.

[gamalot]

I have never done any SPL readings here at home but do agree with the above assessments. Think if I were to test here I would find my prefered level somewhere in the 80-90 DB range. On a rare occassion I get it cranking just to get a good listen to the speakers or on a particular loaded passage that just sounds great loud.
Keep in mind I have no experience in pro audio so can't add much here.
I am glad you are building 19s rather then to employ real ones for your system.
There has been much discussion regarding what is and is not in the VOTT line up and I am not sure where the 19s fell. Many made mention of the 846 Valencia/Flamencos being home versions of the VOTT but I don't remember what the real verdict was from those who really know. Also never knew they made a utility version of the 19.
I suppose one could consider any combination of 416 LF, 811B, 800 HF Non Horn loaded to be a Model 19 style but my feeling is the 19 is but one particular model in either Walnut or Oak home cabinets and the XOs say Model Nineteen on them. I refer to my own home builts as Clone 19s but they are far from the real ones for sure and share only the components and overall box volumes.

Gary

[Tenorman]

Intersting you say that, Jim. Some years ago I was playing tenor sax and doing sound for a 50's-60's rock and roll band.

The band leader said to me, "Paul, we don't draw the headbanger types. We generally draw a little older, and nicer crowd, people in their 30's-70's.

"They like to come in, sit, drink, talk to their friends, get up and dance some, talk to their friends some more.

"Now you see those people at the tables near the speakers? When you see them having to lean over and shout in each others' ears, we are too loud. We don't need it loud, we just need it balanced and clear."

And that's just what I do... get it balanced, get the vocalists mics intelligible, no boom, no sizzling s's, just natural and crisp. And people like it that way.

I had many people comment, "You guys sound terrific! You're not too loud like most bands, but you sound great!"

[boltupright]

Well,,,just to add my 2cents, you would need at least 6 model 19's elevated in different arias in the room to get the performace you may want as the drivers although efficient as all get go, will not handle the power levels you need to compete with the deadening factor of a room full of people dancing in a dance hall, yes they are awsome sounding HiFi loudspeakers but in reality are not designed for pro audio applications, A7's however are, being horn loaded somewhat will project the midbass sound much much better.
If 19's are something you do want to try, I would suggest you put higher power drivers like HPLN & some symiotic or the newer pascalight diaphragms in your compression drivers, but then the midbass fidelity will suffer somewhat.

[bigjunglejim]

Hi boltupright

The only HPLN I know of is the 604 HPLN (high power less network). Are there others? If I change from the 416B and 802 (aluminum diaphragm) the sound will be different... If I were going to change the sound, I wouldn't build Model 19 Cabs. What I might do is first is, take a pair of 19's to a dance I regularly attend and try them in a real life situation. If they work as I think they will, then I'll go ahead and make some road worthy boxes.
In the past (in my own home) I used Soundcraftsmen 5002 amps (250 watts RMS @ 8ohms per side) I'd crank them up just short of clipping. The 19's performed very well. I realy don't think I'll have any trouble doing the DJ gigs I'll be doing... If I were doing hip hop, speed metal, grunge etc, I would use something else. But for the gigs I'll be doing, I don't think I'll have a problem with 19's. I'll post my finding after using a pair of 19's at a dance.

[boltupright]

Sorry Jim,,,,I stand corrected, I meant the 515HP, I have to confess that I've never tried the model 19 in that application, you may have good results for all I know, I'm just saying that with a large room with a full dance floor would effect the dispersion of sound to where it wouldn't work as well as you may hope.
The model 19 is an awesome sounding speaker yes, listening to the model 19 in a home environment, & then listening to them in a PA environment is quite a difference wouldn't you agree?
I thought of doing an outdoor party, I was told by a friend whom I hold in high regard as far as live sound application, & he told me that I probably wouldn't be happy with the 19's in that environment, but the A7's would do the job much better, so in reality, I'm just going by what he said.

[GM]

Originally posted by gamalot:
Think if I were to test here I would find my prefered level somewhere in the 80-90 DB range.

There has been much discussion regarding what is and is not in the VOTT line up and I am not sure where the 19s fell. Many made mention of the 846 Valencia/Flamencos being home versions of the VOTT but I don't remember what the real verdict was from those who really know. Also never knew they made a utility version of the 19.
I suppose one could consider any combination of 416 LF, 811B, 800 HF Non Horn loaded to be a Model 19 style..........

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Greets!

The live jazz venues that I did half-a$$ed measurements of averaged ~85 dB mid room with off the scale transients, but for DJ use most CDs/vinyl is limited to +15-20 dB, so allowing for loss over distance and several speakers, power requirements would be moderate. Since cinema/HT uses 85 dB average/channel/listening position, this seems to me a realistic HIFI max average too. A 'Head Banger's Ball' concert OTOH is more like 105-115 dB average (or at least use to be) depending on the group and/or venue, forcing your ears to act as limiters.

AFAIK the only official 'Salon' (home) version of a VOTT was the A7 Magnificent, the rest were marketed as just having VOTT components, including the famed 820. Valencias, etc., were 'Salon' versions of small PA and/or studio monitors that used at least some VOTT components. Obviously these could be used in a small cinema, but weren't marketed as such nor carried the VOTT label from the factory AFAIK, though the stickers were added by the local distributor and/or installer on any utility cab if allowed (around here anyway), hence the cause of some confusion. Ebay sellers have further 'muddied the waters' by labelling just about anything vintage Altec as a VOTT speaker or component of some sort, I even saw some plastic computer speakers listed awhile back implying having a VOTT lineage. Yeah, right.

I've never seen/heard of a M19 utility cab either. By then, Altec had switched to the 9846, a Barcelona component system derived small PA/studio monitor, so I wonder if any were sold since AFAIK they weren't marketed to compete with it. Indeed, what market would it serve beyond any folks that wouldn't accept the 9846 for whatever reason?

Any combination of bass reflex LF, 800Hz HF horn would be a JBL/Altec-Lansing Iconic variant, but AFAIK the only official ones would be those listed as Iconic on the label. I only recall the 846 and Valencia having it, and then not on all, but there may be others. By the mid '70s, Altec wasn't running a 'tight ship', especially their marketing dept., and between being a DIYer and not being impressed with their consumer line anyway, I mostly ignored it except to help folks with their's on occasion, so probably have missed some stuff.

Anyway, to my way of thinking, like the Barcelona/9846, the M19 was just enough different to be a new model line in parallel with the Iconic series rather than just a variant. As always though, YMMV.

GM

[GM]

Originally posted by boltupright:
I thought of doing an outdoor party, I was told by a friend whom I hold in high regard as far as live sound application, & he told me that I probably wouldn't be happy with the 19's in that environment, but the A7's would do the job much better......

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Greets!

Yeah, you want some controlled directivity down to at least 250 Hz for good intelligibility, which the A7 does, so 'flying' either truncated A7s or 816s would be preferred, with subs sitting on the floor for ease of install, shipment. This would allow the use of the 515's superior mids to boot.

GM